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[00:00.000 --> 00:05.560]  Welcome to the show.
[00:05.560 --> 00:11.240]  On July 9th, 2024, I had the privilege of appearing as a guest on the John Dowling show
[00:11.240 --> 00:16.760]  to speak on the subject of who owes income tax and who does not.
[00:16.760 --> 00:21.000]  As you might imagine, because I am the author of Income Tax Shattering the Mist, the bestselling
[00:21.000 --> 00:28.400]  book in America that provides you with mountains of incontrovertible evidence, the Congress
[00:28.400 --> 00:32.160]  has never imposed the income tax on ordinary hardworking Americans.
[00:32.160 --> 00:36.920]  This interview isn't the typical nonsense, the false establishment narrative you normally
[00:36.920 --> 00:39.120]  hear about the income tax.
[00:39.120 --> 00:42.800]  John asked some very direct and poignant questions.
[00:42.800 --> 00:47.280]  Because of that, you will hear the truth about the income tax in a way you may never have
[00:47.280 --> 00:48.280]  before.
[00:48.280 --> 00:52.940]  I love doing interviews like this one with John because one of my greatest passions is
[00:52.940 --> 00:57.940]  for every one of my countrymen to learn and understand that the United States government
[00:57.940 --> 01:04.780]  has been stealing your money through fraud by running a 60-year disinformation campaign
[01:04.780 --> 01:11.880]  to convince you that the truth is a lie, and the lie is truth.
[01:11.880 --> 01:16.540]  This interview will set you on the right path, the path of knowledge, the path of truth,
[01:16.540 --> 01:19.540]  and the path of significantly increased liberty.
[01:19.540 --> 01:22.580]  The link to purchase income tax shattering the mist is down in the show notes.
[01:22.580 --> 01:26.880]  I hope you enjoy watching this interview as much as I enjoyed my time with John.
[01:26.880 --> 01:28.600]  So let's get to it.
[01:28.600 --> 01:30.840]  Hello, and welcome to the podcast.
[01:30.840 --> 01:37.040]  And thank you for joining us as always with returning Getty Champion, who as you may remember
[01:37.040 --> 01:42.920]  on the last podcast, cogent and articulately gave us a very thorough insight as to the
[01:42.920 --> 01:46.520]  difference between common law and statutory trust.
[01:46.520 --> 01:51.480]  Today he's rejoining us for a matter that is a hot topic for everyone involved, no matter
[01:52.480 --> 01:58.600]  in your process of growth enlightenment, and that is to do with income tax and how to avoid
[01:58.600 --> 01:59.600]  it lawfully.
[01:59.600 --> 02:04.080]  And Dave's going to take us to the ins and outs of his book and what he has learned over
[02:04.080 --> 02:06.320]  a prolonged period of time.
[02:06.320 --> 02:10.080]  You'll notice over his left shoulder, the book itself, income tax.
[02:10.080 --> 02:14.000]  And he has quite graciously given me a copy.
[02:14.000 --> 02:18.160]  So my team and I have been reading through it thoroughly the last week or so to be ready
[02:18.160 --> 02:19.880]  for today's podcast.
[02:19.880 --> 02:23.880]  As always, if you are new to the channel and you haven't subscribed yet, and you want
[02:23.880 --> 02:28.160]  to get notification bell updates personalized for shows like this, please do hit that like
[02:28.160 --> 02:31.400]  subscribe and share button so you can have it and others can grow accordingly.
[02:31.400 --> 02:34.760]  Mr. Champion, thanks for joining the podcast for part two.
[02:34.760 --> 02:35.760]  Appreciate having you here today.
[02:35.760 --> 02:36.760]  Hi, John.
[02:36.760 --> 02:37.760]  Thanks for having me as a guest.
[02:37.760 --> 02:40.760]  It's a pleasure.
[02:40.760 --> 02:41.760]  Likewise, likewise.
[02:41.760 --> 02:42.760]  Okay.
[02:42.760 --> 02:47.720]  So to make the most of your time in the audience time respectively, as always, we've put together
[02:47.960 --> 02:53.320]  in our team's lab, as I affectionately call it, a list of questions that we hope will
[02:53.320 --> 02:55.880]  be needed for you to address today.
[02:55.880 --> 02:58.080]  So let's start off the top.
[02:58.080 --> 03:01.160]  This is in regards to the book that you wrote that I mentioned.
[03:01.160 --> 03:07.160]  The first question is, could the tax honesty movement exist today like it did in the 1990s
[03:07.160 --> 03:08.160]  and early 2000s?
[03:08.160 --> 03:11.200]  Oh, that's a great question.
[03:11.200 --> 03:15.400]  So first of all, I should probably tell your audience that it was robust.
[03:15.400 --> 03:22.040]  It was really robust back in the mid 90s, late 90s and into the early 2000s.
[03:22.040 --> 03:23.480]  There was a lot of activity.
[03:23.480 --> 03:28.840]  There were a lot of, I don't know if the word leaders is correct.
[03:28.840 --> 03:33.400]  Some cases gurus, but there was a lot of activity.
[03:33.400 --> 03:39.640]  And that all came to a screeching halt in 2008 when the economy tanked.
[03:39.640 --> 03:43.240]  And I understand why.
[03:43.320 --> 03:49.880]  It's challenging for somebody to want to get into this foray and risk in their minds, risk
[03:49.880 --> 03:55.560]  potentially having a conflict with the government at a time when they're struggling to pay their
[03:55.560 --> 03:58.280]  mortgage and keep their three kids and their wife at home.
[03:58.280 --> 04:00.200]  OK, it can be challenging.
[04:00.200 --> 04:03.880]  So I understand why the movement sort of evaporated after 2008.
[04:03.880 --> 04:05.320]  But directly to your question now.
[04:06.120 --> 04:15.000]  Yes, there's absolutely no reason that the tax honesty movement cannot be not just as
[04:15.000 --> 04:20.280]  vibrant, but considerably more vibrant than it was back then.
[04:20.280 --> 04:22.280]  We have more people with Internet.
[04:22.280 --> 04:24.280]  We have better Internet.
[04:24.280 --> 04:26.280]  We have better research tools.
[04:26.280 --> 04:33.880]  I think people are probably more skilled doing research in, if they care to, 2024 than they
[04:34.840 --> 04:37.080]  were in, say, 2003.
[04:37.080 --> 04:43.000]  So there's a lot of reasons that the tax honesty movement should be.
[04:45.160 --> 04:46.040]  How can I say this?
[04:46.760 --> 04:52.520]  Not only can it be as robust or more so than it was back then, but it should be.
[04:53.560 --> 04:55.480]  We've got all the tools in place.
[04:55.480 --> 04:57.720]  Well, we didn't have all the tools in place 20 years ago.
[04:57.720 --> 05:02.840]  We've got all the tools in place to succeed and to succeed well and to keep the government
[05:03.480 --> 05:06.360]  to keep people from having a conflict with the government and so on.
[05:06.360 --> 05:11.400]  So a lot has happened since 2008 when the economy tanked and the movement evaporated.
[05:11.400 --> 05:17.480]  So this is by far, far a better time to be a part of the tax honesty community than it was back then.
[05:19.560 --> 05:21.320]  Yeah, it sounds like from what you were sharing,
[05:21.320 --> 05:24.040]  it sounds like it's aged extremely well, as a matter of fact.
[05:26.440 --> 05:27.160]  Yes, yes.
[05:28.120 --> 05:31.000]  There are so many more resources today than there were back then.
[05:31.000 --> 05:33.400]  Absolutely.
[05:33.400 --> 05:34.440]  Oh, I should say also.
[05:36.040 --> 05:36.840]  Let me add one thing.
[05:37.800 --> 05:41.720]  I mentioned it in sort of half joking gurus a moment ago.
[05:43.240 --> 05:49.000]  One of the things that I think has set the stage for the tax honesty movement to be far
[05:49.000 --> 05:54.120]  more robust and successful now is that most of the gurus who had
[05:54.120 --> 05:56.440]  incorrect arguments, they're gone.
[05:56.440 --> 05:57.320]  They're a thing of the past.
[05:57.320 --> 06:01.080]  Fair enough.
[06:01.080 --> 06:02.280]  Thank you for clarifying that.
[06:03.160 --> 06:05.720]  How much harder, Dave, is it for people today,
[06:06.520 --> 06:10.120]  in your estimation, to let go of their misinformation regarding taxation?
[06:13.160 --> 06:16.120]  Okay, so let's acknowledge the elephant in the room.
[06:17.640 --> 06:21.240]  The government 60 year disinformation campaign about who was the income taxed.
[06:22.200 --> 06:27.880]  If there was like an Academy Award for government disinformation,
[06:28.600 --> 06:31.560]  the government's disinformation on the income tax
[06:32.200 --> 06:37.480]  would win every single Academy Award at that show in every category across the board.
[06:39.720 --> 06:44.440]  It would be hard to underestimate how successful their disinformation campaign has been,
[06:45.560 --> 06:50.520]  not just from the government directly, but then the government has reached out to all
[06:50.520 --> 06:54.680]  sorts of people in the accounting industry and in corporations and so forth,
[06:54.680 --> 06:59.240]  and gotten them on board through one means or another.
[06:59.960 --> 07:02.120]  Most of the case, they're just useful idiots.
[07:02.840 --> 07:07.160]  So it has been incredibly, incredibly successful.
[07:07.880 --> 07:11.080]  John, I would wish for you, I mean, not disinformation,
[07:12.040 --> 07:15.000]  but I would wish for you to be as successful as spreading a message
[07:15.640 --> 07:16.760]  as the government has been.
[07:17.720 --> 07:28.200]  And what makes it so astounding to me is that it's a complete blatant falsehood,
[07:28.200 --> 07:33.560]  mischaracterization, but not unintentional.
[07:33.560 --> 07:38.600]  It is willful, and it is intentional, and it is done with malice,
[07:38.600 --> 07:43.240]  and it is done to steal from the American people what the government has no right to get,
[07:43.240 --> 07:49.960]  and to steal it by fraudulent means, by creating in the minds of the American people a completely
[07:49.960 --> 07:55.640]  false fraudulent paradigm so that the American people fall into line like sheep, and they just,
[07:55.640 --> 07:58.520]  at the end of the year, they just say, well, everybody owes the income tax,
[07:58.520 --> 08:02.360]  and you can't fight City Hall, and so I'm going to sign this return, and I'm going to give away
[08:02.360 --> 08:09.640]  8%, 15%, 20%, 26% of my annual earning that I should be spending on my family and my kids and
[08:09.640 --> 08:13.400]  so forth. I'm going to give that to the government because the government says so.
[08:14.120 --> 08:14.360]  Right.
[08:14.360 --> 08:20.600]  I mean, what would the founding fathers think of this? Now, by the way, any tax that is lawfully
[08:20.600 --> 08:26.280]  imposed by the legislature, which is the elected representatives of the people, whether it's at the
[08:26.280 --> 08:32.520]  city level, county level, state level, federal, if a tax is lawfully enacted and it embraces
[08:32.520 --> 08:40.520]  a particular class of person, great. Pay it. The part that kills me about the income tax,
[08:41.320 --> 08:45.720]  the government estimates that 100 million Americans file a 1040 every year, and I don't
[08:45.720 --> 08:49.880]  even know what the number is for 1120s, the business returns, but it's probably at least that.
[08:50.920 --> 08:57.400]  Let's just use the wrong number. 200 million people are filing, and I'm going to guess 98%,
[08:57.880 --> 09:03.400]  97% of those people, the tax has never been imposed on them, whether it's them or their business,
[09:03.400 --> 09:09.960]  the tax has never been imposed. And the only one of two reasons that they're doing that, perhaps
[09:09.960 --> 09:17.560]  both, ignorance, fear. They can cure their ignorance simply by reading income tax shattering
[09:17.560 --> 09:26.280]  the mess. Fear, I would hope that once they learn the facts and they know that literally
[09:27.400 --> 09:32.440]  hundreds of thousands of people have already understood the game the government is playing
[09:32.440 --> 09:37.160]  and safely walked away, that you can find all that information income tax shattering the mess.
[09:39.000 --> 09:45.480]  But it is shocking to me that in supposedly, or is it the land of the free, home of the brave,
[09:46.200 --> 09:53.640]  that most Americans, as soon as you start trying to explain to them the truth of the income tax,
[09:53.640 --> 10:03.000]  like the little children, they go, that they would act like little children is how successful
[10:03.000 --> 10:10.680]  the government's disinformation campaign has been. I couldn't have put in any better. Thank you, Dave.
[10:11.240 --> 10:17.400]  So your book, as we've said earlier, in the beginning of this process, has aged extremely
[10:17.400 --> 10:22.600]  well in terms of the blueprint, the information contained within it, which I've had somewhat of
[10:22.600 --> 10:27.480]  an opportunity to read, because it is very important, but it is a long read over 400 pages,
[10:27.480 --> 10:32.360]  folks. But if you really want to master this, this is the kind of work I've told you folks in
[10:32.360 --> 10:37.160]  the audience that you have to do the work and put in the steps. This is one of those building blocks
[10:37.160 --> 10:43.080]  in the process. But that being said, Dave, I would say that this work, the body of work you've done
[10:43.080 --> 10:49.320]  is probably more important now than it was when you were in 2010. What are some things you would
[10:49.320 --> 10:58.440]  mention in your book if you were to revise it today? If I were to revise it today,
[10:59.320 --> 11:03.640]  there is not a lot that would change. And let me, not to say nothing would change,
[11:03.640 --> 11:08.920]  but not a lot would change. Let me explain that comment. The root of the income tax,
[11:08.920 --> 11:14.360]  when I say things like, Congress has never imposed the income tax on the ordinary, hardworking
[11:14.360 --> 11:21.080]  American, that was true in 1913 when the very first income tax act was adopted. Well,
[11:22.040 --> 11:28.440]  the current model of income tax, 1913, what we as Americans today here in 2024 call
[11:29.000 --> 11:36.680]  income tax, was first enacted in 1913. So from 1913 until today, 111 years,
[11:37.640 --> 11:45.560]  the core of who is taxed and under what circumstances has never changed. Now,
[11:45.560 --> 11:53.800]  has the tax code been amended? Yes. I couldn't even begin to guess how many times over 111 years.
[11:54.680 --> 12:02.680]  But the reality is, who is taxed, under what circumstances, for what type of income,
[12:04.680 --> 12:10.280]  hasn't changed in 111 years, and it's not the average hardworking American citizen,
[12:11.640 --> 12:21.880]  or US legal resident for that matter. There's a lot of, John, when you get to
[12:22.840 --> 12:26.040]  further along in the book, I know you've been very busy and you haven't had a chance to get
[12:26.040 --> 12:36.040]  into it thoroughly. Most of the treasury decisions and the regulations that are referenced as you
[12:36.040 --> 12:43.160]  go through to buttress the premise and to provide evidence that the premise is 100% factual.
[12:43.160 --> 12:46.600]  It is not rooted on anything Dave Champion says. I mean, who the hell am I, right?
[12:47.240 --> 12:52.120]  That it is rooted in what the government has said. When Congress has said with the secretary,
[12:53.400 --> 13:01.720]  again, because the core of the tax has remained the same for 111 years, those citations and
[13:01.720 --> 13:07.320]  references, by the way, there's an extensive index and a glossary of authorities as well,
[13:07.320 --> 13:12.600]  table of authorities. So nobody has to take my word for it. They can research every single thing
[13:12.600 --> 13:16.600]  in the book. That's the important part. So there wouldn't be a lot that I would change.
[13:16.600 --> 13:22.760]  I might update a few things. I think as an example, I say in the book that there are eight
[13:22.760 --> 13:29.480]  treasury decisions that say form 1040 is to be used by a non-resident alien with US source income
[13:29.480 --> 13:34.760]  or the non-resident alien's domestic agent. I think at the time when I wrote the book,
[13:34.760 --> 13:39.400]  I was aware of eight. Now I'm aware of 10. So there would be some small updates like that,
[13:39.400 --> 13:46.600]  but nothing tremendous. So in other words, the fact that it was published in 2010 takes nothing
[13:46.600 --> 13:53.640]  away from it in 2024. Great. Thank you for that. You state in your book that taxation only applies
[13:53.640 --> 13:58.920]  to a certain group of people based on the source of the income. Who are these people and what
[13:58.920 --> 14:05.800]  sources of income are taxed? Thank you. Good question. So Congress has imposed income tax
[14:05.880 --> 14:13.160]  on just three, what the law calls classes of persons. That's a fancy legal term for category.
[14:13.160 --> 14:19.560]  So Congress has imposed income tax on just three categories of people. And I'm going to name those
[14:19.560 --> 14:28.600]  three for you right now. Number one, non-resident aliens with US source income. Number two, foreign
[14:28.600 --> 14:38.760]  corporations with US source income. And number three, US citizens residing abroad with foreign
[14:38.760 --> 14:45.720]  earned income. And when I say that, and people who haven't read Income Tax Shattering the Mist,
[14:46.280 --> 14:49.800]  they may be shocked. I mean, 30 years ago, I was shocked when I first heard it.
[14:52.120 --> 14:56.280]  But again, in Income Tax Shattering the Mist, there's nothing on this show that I'm going to
[14:56.280 --> 15:03.080]  say today that is not buttressed by mountains of irrefutable evidence in Income Tax Shattering
[15:03.080 --> 15:07.080]  the Mist. So again, whether it's reading the book or whether it's here talking with you today,
[15:07.080 --> 15:12.920]  John and your audience, please don't take my word for anything. Look at what the law actually says
[15:12.920 --> 15:22.360]  and the resources behind the law. Correct. Thank you for that. Your answer to solving the evil of
[15:22.360 --> 15:27.400]  the IRS and taxation is simply, as you've said, both in the book to not participate,
[15:27.400 --> 15:33.240]  to simply stop filing taxes and giving your money to the IRS or under the Constitution,
[15:33.240 --> 15:38.120]  Internal Revenue Service, because you know that words matter. This is very daunting for many
[15:38.120 --> 15:42.440]  people today. Is this still what you recommend? And is it harder to do this today than when you
[15:42.440 --> 15:49.640]  wrote the book? No, it's actually much easier because we have a greater understanding of the
[15:49.640 --> 15:59.080]  IRS's process. We have perfected administrative due process resolutions. So it's much, much easier
[15:59.080 --> 16:10.280]  and I get the fear thing. I really do. Yes, 31 years ago, I found out the truth. I walked away
[16:10.280 --> 16:20.040]  from the system and John, okay, so you know my background, right? I was an army ranger.
[16:20.040 --> 16:27.240]  I was in law enforcement. So I felt that I had really stood up for my country and for my community
[16:27.240 --> 16:32.280]  and I had done that because I believed it was the right thing to do because I believed that
[16:35.000 --> 16:39.960]  wherever possible, I should give back to the land that has given me such opportunity.
[16:39.960 --> 16:45.720]  Okay. I certainly cherish personal liberty and I was willing to fight for that. I was willing to
[16:45.720 --> 16:53.000]  die for that. So you can imagine the level of my anger when I realized that the United States
[16:53.000 --> 17:03.960]  government is lying to three, well today, 334 million Americans every single day in order to,
[17:03.960 --> 17:07.560]  knowingly, willfully, and intentionally commit the largest financial crime in world history.
[17:07.640 --> 17:12.360]  Okay. So from my point of view, when I found out the truth,
[17:13.480 --> 17:20.120]  there was no fear because I was enraged. Okay. I sent some
[17:22.600 --> 17:27.320]  strongly worded letters to virtually anybody who was anybody in the federal government back
[17:27.320 --> 17:31.080]  at that time. By the way, I don't encourage people to do that. It has some negative ramifications
[17:31.080 --> 17:44.680]  for me. But I understand the concern. It's hard for me to convey to people here
[17:45.880 --> 17:52.600]  that there is no reason to be afraid anymore. If you go back to say, I think I was introduced
[17:52.600 --> 18:02.600]  to this in 1992-ish, and I can understand why some people were fearful. I get that people don't
[18:02.600 --> 18:06.680]  realize how the evolution of all that we've learned and all that we know and all the tools
[18:06.680 --> 18:13.080]  that we have in the toolbox, people aren't aware of that evolution. So I can only say at this moment
[18:13.080 --> 18:25.480]  in time, do not fear. And if I may, the Libertarian Party, what is one of their number one
[18:26.200 --> 18:39.080]  mantras? Taxation is theft. Yet, I can't get a single notable Libertarian to read Income Tax,
[18:39.080 --> 18:43.880]  Shattering Mass or talk about the subject of the Income Tax. Now, I think you would agree with me
[18:43.880 --> 18:48.280]  that the Libertarian Party is, at this point in history, a completely utterly failed political
[18:48.280 --> 18:53.480]  party. And I've tried to interest some of the people who are at the top. At this point, I think
[18:53.480 --> 18:56.920]  now we're just generating revenue. They know that it's never going to be a viable party. They're
[18:56.920 --> 19:04.680]  just trying to soak the people who are part of the party. But I think the Income Tax, if people
[19:05.400 --> 19:11.880]  that were well known had recognizable names in the Libertarian community were to stand up and
[19:11.880 --> 19:16.520]  start talking about this community, I think it would resurrect the Libertarian Party from the day.
[19:16.520 --> 19:25.160]  But none of them will talk about it. And here is, for me, the very weirdest thing.
[19:27.480 --> 19:32.680]  Following the law about Income Tax, which is what people find in Income Tax, Shattering Mass,
[19:33.640 --> 19:42.440]  following the law is not civil disobedience. It's not committing criminal acts. It's following
[19:43.560 --> 19:51.560]  the law. And to me, it's so insane that Americans, and especially these people at the top of the
[19:51.560 --> 20:01.960]  food chain for the Libertarian sphere, that people are not saying, look, you can keep your earnings
[20:02.440 --> 20:08.600]  all you have to do is follow the law. It's so insane to me that that message
[20:09.640 --> 20:14.360]  cannot, apparently at this moment in history, cannot get traction anywhere, even within the
[20:14.360 --> 20:22.200]  Libertarian sphere. Well, I mean, I agree. And I think that goes back to what we talked about
[20:22.200 --> 20:26.440]  or you touched on in the beginning of this interview, the genesis of it, that the brain
[20:26.440 --> 20:34.280]  watching, Mike, of the deep state and a very concerted effort, we can, this will take us out
[20:34.280 --> 20:39.320]  in the weeds a little bit, so I'll avoid it. But, you know, the quote powers that be, which is
[20:39.320 --> 20:48.200]  always a nebulous and most people don't know how to define what it is, have worked at a very strategic
[20:48.200 --> 20:56.040]  and concerted effort to keep the whole of society in the talk about this stuff on purpose. As you
[20:56.040 --> 21:01.720]  said, it's purposeful. They've lied to us because it's in their best interest to do so. And now we're
[21:01.720 --> 21:06.680]  coming into a period of time where we can finally, between the desire, the knowledge, and the
[21:06.680 --> 21:12.040]  collective of the world wanting to break free, can unhinge a lot of that. And that's what our channel
[21:12.040 --> 21:17.400]  and your channel strives to do. And that's the beauty of what we're doing is we're at our best
[21:17.400 --> 21:22.120]  when we come together, right? When we synergize. Our strength is in our unity, not in division,
[21:22.120 --> 21:26.520]  which as you would agree, they have also, in addition to lying to us, they've also created
[21:26.520 --> 21:32.840]  division from sports to entertainment to the food choices we make, to the people that we associate,
[21:32.840 --> 21:38.280]  places we shop. It's always been about division because even they know that their biggest Achilles
[21:38.280 --> 21:43.560]  heel is the unification of the people, which again, we're striving to do here. So with that in mind,
[21:43.560 --> 21:49.240]  you discuss, and this is mostly, this question is for business owners or previous business owners,
[21:49.240 --> 21:55.960]  as opposed to the individual everyday citizen, as you put it. You discussed the TIN is not needed
[21:55.960 --> 22:01.640]  to do business or banking. We kind of touched on that a little bit on our previous podcasts with
[22:01.640 --> 22:06.920]  respect to the common law trust. So a nice abridgment would be now we're talking about
[22:06.920 --> 22:13.320]  the specificity of taxes. We're told by the payers and the bankers that we do need a TIN to do
[22:13.320 --> 22:20.680]  business. What is the purpose of TIN? Good question. So first of all, TIN stands for
[22:20.680 --> 22:25.400]  taxpayer identification number and taxpayer identification number is an umbrella term.
[22:26.200 --> 22:31.080]  There is no singular thing called a taxpayer identification number. Underneath the umbrella
[22:31.080 --> 22:35.160]  is the employer identification number, social security numbers, individual taxpayer identification
[22:35.160 --> 22:39.880]  numbers, and they've added a bunch more over the years. So the pin is just an umbrella.
[22:40.040 --> 22:48.120]  Okay. The important thing I think for people to understand is that a taxpayer identification
[22:48.120 --> 22:57.720]  number in any of its forms is only required to be given to anybody if what the person who's
[22:58.280 --> 23:06.120]  being requested, the number is being requested from them, if that person is engaged in an activity
[23:07.080 --> 23:13.560]  that pertains to non-resident aliens with U.S. source income, foreign corporations with U.S.
[23:13.560 --> 23:20.520]  source income, or U.S. citizens residing abroad earning foreign earned income. Okay? If the person
[23:20.520 --> 23:25.640]  that is being requested, the number is being requested of is not engaged in any of those,
[23:25.640 --> 23:32.440]  there is zero obligation to furnish a number. Now that's the legal truth of it. That's not
[23:32.920 --> 23:40.200]  that's not the societal truth of it. Try and open a bank account without a taxpayer identification
[23:40.200 --> 23:48.680]  number. Okay? So as an example, several years ago, I went and opened a different or new bank account
[23:48.680 --> 23:54.840]  and the gal across the desk from me, she's doing her thing. Oh, hi, Mr. Champion,
[23:54.840 --> 24:01.960]  entering all the data in there. And at one point there's a little plastic box on the desk facing
[24:01.960 --> 24:07.880]  me with a little LED screen, looks much like a credit card machine. And at a particular point,
[24:07.880 --> 24:14.840]  while she's doing her job, she says to me, Mr. Champion, if you would go ahead and fill that out
[24:14.840 --> 24:22.760]  and then hit enter, I can proceed. I look down and it says taxpayer identification number, right?
[24:23.320 --> 24:30.760]  So I said to her, oh, okay, but here's the thing, there's nothing I'm doing with you or this bank
[24:30.760 --> 24:37.560]  or opening this account that has anything to do with the income tax laws of the federal
[24:37.560 --> 24:44.840]  government or the states. So I'm not a person required to furnish that. So I won't be. Yeah.
[24:45.400 --> 24:51.160]  And her answer wasn't this goes to, you know, the practical world we live in, right? As opposed to
[24:51.160 --> 24:57.960]  the legal reality. She said, oh, well, there's a problem.
[24:59.800 --> 25:04.920]  My computer won't let me move forward with this transaction until you put that number in and hit
[25:04.920 --> 25:11.880]  enter. Okay. So I put my social security number in there, which is one form of a taxpayer
[25:11.880 --> 25:18.840]  identification number. I hit enter and she completed everything. And then I formulated and sent
[25:19.800 --> 25:30.120]  with US Postal Service return receipt requested a very detailed legal letter to the legal department
[25:30.120 --> 25:38.040]  of that bank, sent to their main headquarters back East, in which I clarified that because the
[25:38.040 --> 25:44.600]  number was, because their computer system does not function correctly, they have not made the
[25:45.160 --> 25:49.880]  correct accommodations to be in compliance with the US tax law. The number that I provided
[25:51.160 --> 25:58.360]  for the purpose of taxation is invalid. It is not a taxpayer identification number.
[25:58.360 --> 26:04.200]  And it is not to be used by such, by them ever, because it is not a taxpayer identification
[26:04.200 --> 26:11.000]  number. It was extracted under duress. And it's duress because I could have gone to any bank
[26:11.000 --> 26:15.000]  in America and got in the same situation. It's not like I could have just gone down the block
[26:15.000 --> 26:20.680]  and it would have been different. But that letter had to be highly detailed because as you know,
[26:20.680 --> 26:27.640]  banks are very tightly regulated and they're scared of the government too. And there's things
[26:27.640 --> 26:31.880]  like, no, your customer regulations that they have to comply with and so forth. There's money
[26:31.880 --> 26:36.120]  laundering, anti-terrorism, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So that letter had to be very,
[26:36.680 --> 26:41.800]  detailed. It was almost like on your phone, turn features on, like an iPhone, the green thing,
[26:41.800 --> 26:47.000]  turn it on, turn it off, turn it on, turn it off. So the letter had to be like, this is valid,
[26:47.000 --> 26:54.040]  this is not. This is, this is, this is not. And that's not. So that when their legal department
[26:54.040 --> 26:58.520]  reviewed the document, they would not turn around and say, we're closing your account.
[26:59.720 --> 27:04.200]  Because if I had just said that number is not valid, period, end of statement, they would have
[27:04.200 --> 27:10.760]  closed the account because then it would have placed them at risk for various regulatory matters.
[27:10.760 --> 27:16.760]  So, you know, what I said, we have a lot more tools. That's an example of one. Now,
[27:16.760 --> 27:20.280]  I understand your audience is thinking, well, how would I know to write that letter and get,
[27:20.280 --> 27:25.320]  you know, if you have questions, you'll have my contact information at the end. But the point is
[27:25.320 --> 27:30.760]  all of those tools are in place. Great. Thank you so much. And that was a great example.
[27:31.400 --> 27:38.520]  You speak of outcome-based law. Your book is used against you. Today, it seems that judges are more
[27:38.520 --> 27:45.000]  blatant and emboldened in this. You see some judicial attacks on President Trump, for example.
[27:45.000 --> 27:47.560]  How do, how would the average person combat this today?
[27:51.800 --> 27:57.000]  Well, when it comes to the income tax, we'll limit my answer to that because the broader answer
[27:57.000 --> 28:04.200]  would be here all day. So, if we limit it to income tax, you're not going to have that problem
[28:04.200 --> 28:11.240]  in the courts. And let me explain why. I've been at this 31 years. I haven't filed a return or paid
[28:11.240 --> 28:19.320]  a penny of income tax in 31 years. Here I sit, a free guy, great life, talking to you and your
[28:19.320 --> 28:25.720]  audience. Okay. Why has the government not prosecuted me? Here's the answer to that.
[28:26.600 --> 28:33.240]  They've admitted, by the way, they possess my book. Okay. The US Department of Justice
[28:33.240 --> 28:39.080]  tax division has acknowledged they own a copy of my book. And I'm sure it's been passed around the
[28:39.080 --> 28:45.800]  office. A lot of their attorneys have read it, I'm sure. And here's the way the government looks
[28:45.800 --> 28:51.400]  at this. We talked about the disinformation and how phenomenally successful that program has been.
[28:52.280 --> 28:58.360]  So, right now, the government probably has, leaving aside people who are merely irresponsible,
[28:59.320 --> 29:02.920]  talking about people like me who don't file and pay because I know the law,
[29:04.040 --> 29:09.160]  that's a tiny, tiny, tiny fraction of the US population. So, the government's got it really
[29:09.160 --> 29:16.120]  good. Like 97% of the public is like, oh, I'm not going to mess with the IRS. They're the worst
[29:16.120 --> 29:20.360]  people in the world and I'm going to file my taxes and file my returns, even if I'm not required.
[29:20.360 --> 29:25.160]  So, the IRS has got it really, really good. The government does. They're not going to rock
[29:25.160 --> 29:31.320]  the boat. So, how would they rock the boat? Well, imagine taking me to trial. Imagine
[29:32.200 --> 29:37.320]  what the arguments of law would be that got placed before the judge, before the trial ever began.
[29:38.360 --> 29:42.200]  Okay. And anybody who reads Income Tax Shattering the Mist is going to get to the end and go,
[29:43.240 --> 29:48.360]  I totally get what Champion is saying. If the law was placed in front of the court,
[29:49.080 --> 29:55.400]  the trial would never be able to take place. Okay. Because the government could not answer
[29:56.520 --> 30:02.200]  any of the reality. I mean, like, what's the government going to say? Your name isn't Dave
[30:02.200 --> 30:09.720]  Champion? Well, same thing with the law is just that plain. It's 60 years of disinformation has
[30:09.720 --> 30:16.440]  made people think it's something other than it is. And certainly when the statutes were broken down
[30:16.440 --> 30:21.000]  and placed within the code, okay, they did everything they could to make it inscrutable.
[30:21.000 --> 30:28.200]  I mean, to be frank, they set out intentionally to make tax law the most difficult area of law
[30:28.200 --> 30:32.200]  to understand. That's what Income Tax Shattering the Mist does. It completely unwinds that.
[30:33.400 --> 30:37.800]  Instead of taking all these things that are far afield and make no sense and do not seem
[30:37.800 --> 30:41.640]  interconnected, all of a sudden it puts them in a nice straight line that everybody can understand
[30:42.440 --> 30:47.560]  and acknowledge, ah, yes, that is the order they have to be viewed in order to understand the tax.
[30:48.120 --> 30:56.440]  So my point being, when you know the law and you rely on the law,
[30:58.920 --> 31:05.320]  no one from the government is going to bother you because they can't risk it. Now,
[31:06.440 --> 31:11.000]  admittedly, if say 30% of the people who file 1040s were to check out tomorrow,
[31:11.000 --> 31:14.440]  the government might take a different position. They might see the writing on the wall and say,
[31:14.440 --> 31:20.520]  you know, we have to try something because we're losing. But at this point, they're winning so
[31:20.520 --> 31:25.960]  dramatically. I mean, literally a million people could learn the truth and walk away tomorrow and
[31:25.960 --> 31:32.600]  the government would shrug. They're like, we've got the other 99 million. We'll just raise the
[31:32.600 --> 31:36.600]  percentage of tax a little bit. We're good. We don't need to rock the boat. And imagine the
[31:36.600 --> 31:45.320]  case gets to SCOTUS. And SCOTUS says, this guy, the way he laid out the law, that's what income tax
[31:45.320 --> 31:51.480]  is. Okay. They can't risk that. So that's another reason that people should feel secure. When they
[31:51.480 --> 31:55.960]  read income tax shattering the mess, they've seen the law with their own two eyes and they follow
[31:55.960 --> 32:03.640]  the law. They use the tools that today we have in our toolbox. They can rest assured, safely walk
[32:03.640 --> 32:09.880]  away and live the rest of their lives without ever hearing from the government. Yep. Yeah.
[32:09.880 --> 32:14.840]  They're minimizing collateral damage, like you said. And unfortunately for them, with shows like
[32:14.840 --> 32:19.160]  this, that's going to become a little bit more problematic for them, which segues beautifully,
[32:20.680 --> 32:24.840]  which segues beautifully, Dave, in my next question, which is that President Trump, as you know,
[32:25.480 --> 32:32.120]  has been a lot more vocal now as we get potentially closer to an election, which remains
[32:32.120 --> 32:36.440]  to be seen, but that's another topic for another day. He has said that he's going to be ending
[32:36.440 --> 32:41.960]  taxes on tips if elected. He's also going to abolish the income tax. Do you think this is
[32:41.960 --> 32:47.320]  the beginning of the ending of income tax? No, no. That's never going to happen.
[32:48.280 --> 32:52.440]  Politicians, whether it's Donald Trump or anybody else, they say whatever they need to say.
[32:53.320 --> 32:59.800]  They say something because they want to lasso in this 2% of the voters. They say something else
[32:59.800 --> 33:03.960]  because they want to lasso in those 4% of the voters. It doesn't mean it's going to happen.
[33:03.960 --> 33:10.520]  First of all, can Donald Trump do away with the income tax? Well, not without Congress.
[33:11.960 --> 33:17.480]  Not only does he have to have both houses of Congress, but he has to have them in such numbers
[33:17.480 --> 33:24.200]  that even potential naysayers in his own party would go along with it, which I question.
[33:25.160 --> 33:30.840]  Now, we have to also take a look at the repercussions of doing away with the income
[33:30.840 --> 33:38.840]  tax because the sole purpose of the income tax when enacted in 1913 and to this very day is not
[33:38.840 --> 33:44.280]  to pay for any of the services that people imagine it pays for when they sign their form and write
[33:44.280 --> 33:50.840]  that check to the government. It's nothing like that. The whole purpose from 1913 to this very
[33:50.840 --> 33:55.240]  moment when we're talking is to pay the interest on the national debt. That's all it does.
[33:56.600 --> 33:59.880]  It's in Income Tax Shattering the Mists. I talk about the Grace Commission and paneled by Ronald
[33:59.880 --> 34:05.480]  Reagan. That was one of the 10 questions he asked and they answered it. You can see there's not my
[34:05.480 --> 34:11.480]  opinion, it's opinion of the experts. All it does is pay the interest on the debt and it doesn't go
[34:11.480 --> 34:15.320]  to fund the military or any of the things that people are concerned about. Whenever you say,
[34:16.280 --> 34:20.840]  they say, well, what would happen if everybody stopped filing income tax? How would we defend
[34:20.840 --> 34:28.920]  our nation? Not one penny of income tax goes to defend the nation. When I talk about repercussions,
[34:30.440 --> 34:38.040]  bankers don't loan money if they can't get interest. If the income tax at Congress would
[34:38.040 --> 34:43.000]  end the income tax tomorrow, let's say the Republicans took both houses and Donald Trump
[34:43.000 --> 34:48.680]  said, let's do away with income tax. Without a replacement form of taxation,
[34:50.520 --> 34:55.000]  the repercussions would be made clear by Treasury. Starting tomorrow, the nation is bankrupt
[34:56.040 --> 35:00.760]  because we can't get any more money from the Fed. We're done. All the banks of the Federal Reserve,
[35:00.760 --> 35:05.080]  even international banks will no longer loan us money because we don't have that source that
[35:05.080 --> 35:10.280]  we've used to pay the interest all along. That would be the first obstacle.
[35:11.000 --> 35:17.320]  The second obstacle would be what is the replacement tax? Because Donald Trump can
[35:17.320 --> 35:21.640]  say whatever he wants on the stump. But when you get into committee, when you get into these
[35:21.640 --> 35:28.200]  leadership conferences, somebody is going to say, so how are we going to exist without X amount of
[35:28.200 --> 35:31.400]  trillions of dollars being brought in every year by the income tax? The government's got to have
[35:31.400 --> 35:36.040]  that money. So then they have to have in some form of alternative tax. And the Constitution
[35:36.840 --> 35:41.480]  strictly limits the kind of taxation that the federal government can impose.
[35:42.760 --> 35:47.480]  People think the Congress can do whatever it wants, but it can't. The reason we have a tax now
[35:47.480 --> 35:53.560]  that the government lies about and has for 60 years, that disinformation campaign we've discussed
[35:53.560 --> 35:59.400]  is because that's the only tax that would pass constitutional scrutiny. So they pass a tax that
[35:59.400 --> 36:05.240]  doesn't apply to most Americans and got most Americans to believe it does. Now, here in the
[36:05.240 --> 36:11.400]  age of media and the internet, what are they going to replace it with? Right now, again,
[36:11.400 --> 36:14.920]  they've got the great gig. They've got everybody fooled. They've got everybody volunteering to pay
[36:14.920 --> 36:21.400]  a tax that doesn't apply to them. Any new tax that they propose would get a proctological exam.
[36:22.680 --> 36:28.440]  And then the American people would see it on the nightly news. They'd see it on the internet. They'd
[36:28.440 --> 36:34.360]  see it on X. They'd see it on Facebook. They'd see it on your show. No, this tax constitutionally
[36:34.360 --> 36:37.480]  has boundaries. They're trying to do something that the Constitution doesn't permit.
[36:38.520 --> 36:48.440]  So for all of these reasons, I think what Trump said about the tips, well, I guess Congress can
[36:48.440 --> 36:54.760]  change that. But as far as doing away with the income tax, no, that's never going to happen,
[36:54.760 --> 37:01.640]  not in my lifetime. Okay, fair enough. Well, I'm glad you brought that up, Dave, because that
[37:01.640 --> 37:05.240]  actually you and I talked offline that I had some information I want to share with you and
[37:05.240 --> 37:09.240]  your audience, my audience, respectively. Now, some of my audience on our telegram channel has
[37:09.240 --> 37:13.960]  already seen this. So those of you who are on telegram, that's old hat, I apologize, but I have
[37:13.960 --> 37:19.800]  to reach out to the greater constituents of the community. And so I'm going to share my screen
[37:19.800 --> 37:27.080]  with you, Dave, right now. And I want to show you a couple of interesting documents that I think
[37:27.080 --> 37:33.880]  you'll find hopefully compelling, if nothing else. I'm going to open this up a little bit.
[37:33.880 --> 37:39.640]  Hopefully you can move this around a little bit and hopefully you can see it. You can see that
[37:40.760 --> 37:44.920]  now this, I will fully admit this was long before I learned about you or learned about the,
[37:45.720 --> 37:50.280]  about your income tax book. But now that I've been reading it and going through it with our team,
[37:51.320 --> 37:56.280]  to the best of our ability, it turns out that a lot of the principles you discussed coincided
[37:56.280 --> 38:01.160]  well with what we did and it worked successfully. So what I'm showing you and the audience,
[38:01.160 --> 38:07.880]  respectively, a couple of years ago, they tried to come after me for income tax. And before I
[38:07.880 --> 38:12.920]  really knew what I was doing, like, like now with time, you hopefully improve and learn, right?
[38:13.880 --> 38:22.040]  Like was the case with your, your book, I filed a petition with the U S federal tax court,
[38:22.040 --> 38:26.280]  which there's a division in every city, state, and every country, as you know,
[38:26.280 --> 38:32.680]  the book talks about, and I filed it an appeal and it's too long to go into the purposes of
[38:32.680 --> 38:38.840]  today's show. But the gist of it is I said that I do not consent as I do not have a contract with
[38:38.840 --> 38:43.880]  the internal revenue service and the taxes are voluntary as an individual. And if they can prove
[38:43.880 --> 38:49.400]  there's a law in the books, otherwise I would be happy to comply. But per UCC uniform commercial
[38:49.400 --> 38:55.560]  code 1-308, that is not a requirement. And it took them, interestingly enough, two and a half
[38:55.560 --> 39:03.160]  years. I wrote this letter in February of 2022. Here we sit now in July. They wrote back in,
[39:03.160 --> 39:10.040]  which you'll see in a minute, June of last month, basically agreeing and acknowledging that. And
[39:10.040 --> 39:14.600]  here was the, the judge obviously signing off on that. That means something to you because you have
[39:14.600 --> 39:20.040]  a lot of experience in this, in this milieu. So I just thought I would share that with you and
[39:20.040 --> 39:27.560]  the audience as a form of encouragement. And then here is the second page of that letter. Obviously,
[39:27.560 --> 39:32.440]  I've protected my signature for privacy and security purposes, but you can see the docket
[39:32.440 --> 39:37.000]  number and you can see the staff and all that acknowledging it and when it was signed off on
[39:37.800 --> 39:44.120]  to be released. So I thought that was, would be an encouraging testimonial for those who are on the
[39:44.120 --> 39:48.360]  fence about doing this or some people in your audience who maybe have read the book or in the
[39:48.360 --> 39:54.840]  process of reading the book, they can see that this actually is realistic and achievable and very
[39:54.840 --> 40:01.240]  timely for the environment that we're in. Let me see if there's anything else. I think that's
[40:01.240 --> 40:08.840]  pretty much it. So. Okay. So first of all, congratulations. Thanks. Any win against the
[40:08.840 --> 40:17.720]  government. I'm with you a thousand percent on that. And I'm sorry you had to go through that
[40:17.720 --> 40:24.200]  because I know it's stressful. So what I'd like to leave your audience with is if they read and
[40:24.200 --> 40:28.280]  come back, shattering the mission and exit the correct exit, the system correctly and obey the
[40:28.280 --> 40:34.120]  law at all times. They will never have to do what you just did because it'll never go that far.
[40:34.120 --> 40:38.120]  Okay. I want to be clear about that. Also, I said a moment ago and I want to give people the wrong
[40:38.120 --> 40:43.560]  impression. I said a moment ago that the income tax is never the current income tax, as we
[40:43.560 --> 40:46.920]  understand it, is never going to go away. And there are many, many reasons for that.
[40:48.280 --> 40:53.400]  What I fail to say is once you read the law, know what it says and follow it,
[40:54.520 --> 40:59.080]  who gives a shit about the income tax? Let it stay on the books. It's been on the books for
[40:59.080 --> 41:05.960]  the 31 years. I haven't filed a pay. So how much impact does the tax code have on Dave Champion?
[41:05.960 --> 41:10.760]  Zero. So I didn't want people to get the wrong idea when I said it's never going to go away.
[41:10.760 --> 41:16.040]  If they're like, well, then why am I watching this show? What's the purpose? It doesn't apply
[41:16.040 --> 41:22.840]  to you. So, okay. That's a very important demarcation that you make. And to your point,
[41:22.840 --> 41:30.120]  as I stated when I showed the documents, I haven't paid income tax. I won't say I fired
[41:30.120 --> 41:37.080]  my accountant because she's a lovely lady, but I politely recused myself from the annual dialogue
[41:37.080 --> 41:43.800]  and we're just friends now. And she still doesn't understand, but that's fine. They've even convinced
[41:43.800 --> 41:49.640]  accountants that it's a job security thing for the time being. But I didn't know about your book then
[41:49.640 --> 41:53.560]  the way I do now. And to your point, had I known that what I know now, I would have done things
[41:53.560 --> 42:01.160]  differently, which would have sidestepped this, but it was a good practice for me to learn the
[42:01.160 --> 42:06.760]  constitution and the law and how to apply it and to become more educated in the process. And again,
[42:06.760 --> 42:12.760]  to give the audience some encouragement that this is a real and measurable thing as you touched on
[42:12.760 --> 42:20.440]  rightly. So thank you again for that. This may or may not be a question that you can answer,
[42:20.440 --> 42:25.400]  and if you can't, that's fine. I'm just trying to stretch the boundaries of things because I know
[42:25.400 --> 42:33.160]  that you're intelligible and cogent enough to be able to flex yourself. But there, as you may be
[42:33.160 --> 42:38.760]  aware, is a massive financial change that is happening right now. Economically, you touched
[42:38.760 --> 42:44.520]  on 2008 and that was what I would call a micro tremor compared to where we are headed now
[42:44.600 --> 42:49.080]  economically in the whole of the world with respect to the de-dollarization, bricks,
[42:50.520 --> 42:54.840]  precious metals, and all of that. We touch on that quite frequently in our show as you may or
[42:54.840 --> 43:02.680]  may not be aware. And so there is an impending revaluation of a lot of foreign currencies that
[43:02.680 --> 43:08.120]  is coming down the pike in the not too distant future. And when we purchase those currencies,
[43:08.120 --> 43:13.800]  saying myself and many others through licensed currency dealers where you get a receipt and so
[43:13.800 --> 43:20.280]  forth, you don't pay any taxes on that as there are no taxes currently. You pay an exchange fee,
[43:20.280 --> 43:26.440]  which is the broker fee to cost of doing business normal, just like they hire you to get a trust
[43:26.440 --> 43:31.640]  or if you were doing that, they would hire you for your fee for your time and expertise.
[43:31.640 --> 43:39.080]  Same thing with any other vendor. But when the RV does happen, revaluation or
[43:39.080 --> 43:43.400]  reinstatement, depending on the country we're dealing with, to your knowledge,
[43:43.400 --> 43:51.720]  would any of that be taxed? No, no. Well, you're asking me to address something that is in the
[43:51.720 --> 43:57.400]  future. So I don't know what laws Congress may pass between now and then. But if we're, again,
[43:57.400 --> 44:04.040]  limiting my answer to the income tax as it has existed for 111 years, that answer is no because
[44:04.760 --> 44:11.000]  have to be non-resident alien with US source income, a foreign corporation with US source
[44:11.000 --> 44:16.360]  income or US citizen residing abroad with foreign income. If you're not within one of those three
[44:16.360 --> 44:23.880]  classes, the property that you hold, which of course includes currency, currency is a form of
[44:23.880 --> 44:30.600]  property, the form that it takes, a lot of people, they're in the digital currency market, if I can
[44:30.600 --> 44:36.680]  call it that. And I get questions from people all the time about that. It doesn't matter what form
[44:36.680 --> 44:44.200]  your property takes. Your property is immune to the income tax if you're not participating
[44:44.200 --> 44:48.200]  in one of those three classes. Your activities do not fall within one of those three classes.
[44:49.800 --> 44:55.320]  Right. Thank you for that. That's what I was kind of hoping you would articulate or reiterate.
[44:55.320 --> 45:01.960]  And if I may add an addendum to your point, because I've been in this movement for 11 years,
[45:01.960 --> 45:07.400]  I had a little bit of knowledge, enough to be dangerous as they say, about them subject matter
[45:07.400 --> 45:12.200]  because we have such a great team that looks at it from all investigatory angles. And that is to say
[45:12.200 --> 45:18.600]  that one of my mentors who brought me into this a long time ago educated me on the fact that there
[45:18.600 --> 45:24.360]  is a global tax treaty amongst all these countries, which roughly it's 209 countries,
[45:24.360 --> 45:29.720]  including all the provinces and such that got together many years ago and formed what's called
[45:29.720 --> 45:35.320]  the global tax treaty. And thereby they were not going to tax this currency because you said
[45:35.320 --> 45:40.200]  former property and there was no precedent to do so. But ultimately for their business model would
[45:40.200 --> 45:45.960]  be very prohibitive in the aspect that if every country were to do, let's say a lottery tax,
[45:45.960 --> 45:51.320]  right, 50, 60% or some crazy amount, that would defeat the purpose of the GDP that would be
[45:51.320 --> 45:55.560]  repatriated back into each respective country. Because as you know, when people come into a large
[45:55.560 --> 45:59.960]  batch of money, whether it's a trust or an inheritance or a lottery, what have you,
[45:59.960 --> 46:04.600]  what's the first thing they do? They buy things and that goes back into the economy, right?
[46:04.600 --> 46:10.520]  If you tax them at such a high level, that's obviously a grave discouragement for most people
[46:10.520 --> 46:16.440]  to put money into that. And then they try to find havens and tax shelters and offshore accounts and
[46:16.440 --> 46:21.720]  the like to mitigate that. So that was just something I wanted to add on the backs of what
[46:21.720 --> 46:24.920]  you said to kind of give a little additional reinforcement, if that makes sense.
[46:25.880 --> 46:32.120]  It does. Also, I, once people understand the law, they've seen it with their own two eyes.
[46:32.120 --> 46:35.560]  You come back shouting this is a good source for that, but however they get, however they end up
[46:35.560 --> 46:41.640]  doing it. Okay. One of the things, and I've talked about 31 years, no returns, no payment. Okay.
[46:42.600 --> 46:48.520]  That's because I'm an American citizen and we have rules in this country. Okay. We talked about,
[46:48.520 --> 46:52.120]  they don't want to take me to court because the matters of law that we raise with the court
[46:52.120 --> 46:59.320]  before we ever want to trial, they can't get around. Okay. I caution people about offshore
[46:59.320 --> 47:06.120]  activities because, and I'm not saying don't do it. Okay. Let me be clear about that. Sure.
[47:06.760 --> 47:12.680]  I do want to point out it makes, there's not a lot of people doing that, number one, but number two,
[47:13.720 --> 47:16.120]  it can muddy the waters when it comes to
[47:19.240 --> 47:24.280]  shutting the IRS down should they contact you. They're easy to shut down if everything you're
[47:24.280 --> 47:31.960]  doing is domestic. Once you go offshore, that conversation gets more multifaceted. There's
[47:31.960 --> 47:37.880]  more tentacles and so I'm not saying don't go offshore. I'm saying you have to know your
[47:37.880 --> 47:42.920]  business even, not your business as in what you do for a living, but you have to know the business
[47:42.920 --> 47:48.040]  of taxation and tax treaties and other issues more thoroughly before you go there in order
[47:48.040 --> 47:54.040]  to protect yourself. Yeah. Do you mind if we talk, we've talked a couple of times here about the
[47:54.040 --> 48:04.520]  practicality. Can I give your audience an example of how the disinformation, the scam works and I
[48:04.520 --> 48:09.560]  said the government hasn't enlisted businesses and so forth. So I think it's important for people
[48:09.560 --> 48:14.920]  to understand to get an actual real world example rather than just you and I talking about things
[48:14.920 --> 48:21.560]  that we know. Okay. So here's a real world example. Let's say a guy owns a business where he
[48:21.560 --> 48:26.280]  cleans carpets for businesses. So he goes in when they're closed and he cleans their carpets
[48:26.280 --> 48:32.120]  and he does a great job and his business grows and he's got a lot of clients. So the client's like,
[48:32.120 --> 48:37.880]  hey man, we really like you. I want to cut you the check for what you did last month,
[48:37.880 --> 48:43.400]  but I need you to fill out this form W9. Okay. I think anybody who owns their own business or
[48:43.400 --> 48:50.760]  ever has owned their own business has had that experience. What I don't think most people
[48:50.760 --> 48:56.760]  understand is the true application of the form W9. And I'm not going to get into all the legalese
[48:56.760 --> 49:00.520]  today. I've got a bunch of videos out there that they give the specifics of the law. Of course,
[49:00.520 --> 49:04.840]  they'll find it in income tax shattering the mist in abundance. But for the sake of today,
[49:04.840 --> 49:09.320]  it's important to understand that a form W9 is what the secretary of the treasury has said in
[49:09.320 --> 49:17.640]  its regulations is a withholding certificate. Okay. Now people are thinking to themselves, wait,
[49:18.600 --> 49:23.480]  there's, I'm not an employee. There's no withholding done. So why is a W9 a withholding
[49:23.480 --> 49:28.360]  certificate? The reason it's classified by the secretary of the treasury as a withholding
[49:28.360 --> 49:37.320]  certificate is because it is only to be used. It's only to be given to a withholding agent.
[49:38.680 --> 49:42.840]  Withholding certificates go to the withholding agent and all of this is in law and it's all
[49:42.840 --> 49:47.720]  spelled out in income tax shattering the mist. So what's a withholding agent? A withholding agent
[49:47.720 --> 49:52.760]  is a person who has control, custody, dispersal, blah, blah. There's a whole bunch of descriptors
[49:52.760 --> 50:03.320]  in the code of US source income belonging to a foreign person. Okay. The only legal purpose
[50:03.960 --> 50:12.280]  for a form W9 is you're telling the guy who possesses US source income belonging to a foreign
[50:12.280 --> 50:20.040]  person that you as a US person, that's a legal term in the tax code, that you as a US person
[50:20.040 --> 50:29.160]  are someone in the pipeline of US source income flowing to its foreign owner. You're in that
[50:29.160 --> 50:37.480]  pipeline. Okay. So when John, who owned, not you John, when Brett, we'll use that, when Brett
[50:38.280 --> 50:46.280]  gives this guy a form W9, he's attesting under penalty of perjury that he is a US citizen or
[50:46.280 --> 50:52.120]  resident and the money he's receiving from that company actually belongs to the foreign guy
[50:53.400 --> 50:57.720]  and he's just part of that flow and he's going to send that money down the pipeline to the foreign
[50:57.720 --> 51:06.360]  owner. Now I'm sure, and of course that generates a 1099, right? And the purpose of a 1099 is exactly
[51:06.360 --> 51:15.080]  that. It informs the IRS that that individual received US source income belonging to a foreign
[51:15.080 --> 51:21.640]  person. That's what a 1099 means. It's not about your own income that you earned for you. Now,
[51:21.640 --> 51:25.560]  I'm sure a lot of people that are listening to this right now or watching this are saying,
[51:26.360 --> 51:31.480]  that's nuts. That's not true. I've been in business for 25 years. I've literally given out
[51:31.480 --> 51:37.240]  thousands of those. That's not what it means. How would you know that if you've never read the law?
[51:39.880 --> 51:46.840]  And it's exactly what it means. And here's the sad part about this. So let's say a guy who,
[51:46.840 --> 51:52.760]  he gets, I'm going to throw out an arbitrary number. He gets 27 1099s a year and he doesn't
[51:52.760 --> 51:58.600]  pay any tax returns because he heard someplace that the tax doesn't apply to most Americans.
[51:59.560 --> 52:04.520]  So then the IRS sends him a letter. Hey, where's your tax return? They send a couple of those
[52:04.520 --> 52:07.720]  letters. They don't get a response. Then they assess them. Then they start to lean. They start
[52:07.720 --> 52:14.040]  to levy and so forth. Okay. Now the guy's in trouble. So maybe he hides some of his assets
[52:14.040 --> 52:19.640]  or whatever. Suddenly he finds himself going to criminal court. Now, the reason I wanted to
[52:19.640 --> 52:24.360]  talk about what the true purpose of the Form W-9 is and the true purpose of an information return
[52:24.360 --> 52:32.600]  and call the 1099 is when he goes to criminal court, the prosecutor from the DOJ tax division
[52:33.960 --> 52:43.160]  knows that the income they're claiming he didn't pay is income belonging to a foreign person.
[52:44.280 --> 52:52.840]  And he was the last domestic guy with it. And he didn't withhold the foreign guy's U.S. source
[52:52.840 --> 52:59.240]  income tax and pay it over to the U.S. government as the law legitimately requires. And the
[52:59.240 --> 53:05.400]  government has those 1099s which say the money belonged to a foreign person. So imagine the
[53:05.400 --> 53:11.640]  government is, we're prosecuting this guy and he doesn't even know what the fuck we're prosecuting
[53:11.640 --> 53:18.040]  him for. And the poor guy and his attorney, they think the government is prosecuting him over the
[53:18.040 --> 53:24.360]  money that he brought in for himself that belonged to him. And that is not what they're prosecuting
[53:24.360 --> 53:32.600]  him for. And then he's convicted by a jury and everybody that knows him or is associated or
[53:32.600 --> 53:39.160]  aware of his case says, Steve, the courts are corrupt. The court wasn't corrupt at all.
[53:40.520 --> 53:45.720]  He simply did not understand the difference between what the charges brought by the government were
[53:45.720 --> 53:55.160]  about and how he was defending himself. That went like this. Is the government responsible? Yes,
[53:55.160 --> 54:00.280]  60 years of disinformation campaign. They've set it up to do exactly this. So they are responsible.
[54:00.280 --> 54:07.880]  But who's ultimately responsible? We are. We have to know what the law says. And we have to know what
[54:07.880 --> 54:14.200]  forms like the W-9 mean. The 1099, I mentioned the 1040 earlier on the show. There are 10 treasury
[54:14.200 --> 54:19.160]  decisions that say the 1040 is to be used by a non-resident alien with U.S. source income or
[54:19.800 --> 54:27.240]  his U.S. agent. So how many treasury decisions in 111 years say that the form 1040 is to be
[54:27.240 --> 54:31.640]  used by an American citizen earning his or her own domestic income in the state of the union?
[54:33.000 --> 54:41.960]  Zero. Zero in 111 years. It's all so clear. It's laid out so crystal clear. All Americans have to
[54:41.960 --> 54:48.360]  do is get informed. And then they can just safely walk away. Great. Thank you for that.
[54:50.120 --> 54:53.560]  Not to muddy the waters, but I thought it was an interesting dovetail question, Dave,
[54:53.560 --> 54:57.560]  as you were sharing. We talked about common law trust in our last video, as you obviously
[54:57.560 --> 55:04.600]  remember a couple of weeks ago, and how there are ways to set up a bank account differently
[55:04.600 --> 55:13.400]  than with the EIN and so forth. So in your estimation, is there a way, let's say a person
[55:13.400 --> 55:17.400]  is getting a common law trust or they have a common law trust, but they've never activated a
[55:17.400 --> 55:23.240]  bank account with it for whatever reason, right? What in your estimation would be the easiest way
[55:23.240 --> 55:29.320]  to set up or activate a common law trust with a bank account that avoids taxation?
[55:29.320 --> 55:37.480]  Well, taxation is not predicated on the possession of a taxpayer identification number. Let me be
[55:37.480 --> 55:44.280]  clear about that. So for instance, I'm not involved in receiving U.S. source income belonging to a
[55:44.280 --> 55:50.280]  foreign person, right? But if I ever was, I could just use my Social Security number as my taxpayer
[55:50.280 --> 55:56.280]  identification number, because I am legitimately required to withhold the U.S. income tax from the
[55:56.280 --> 56:01.800]  money that belongs to the foreign guy before I send it offshore. That's a legitimate duty I have,
[56:01.800 --> 56:06.440]  and every American has it, if they're in that pipeline of U.S. source income belonging to a
[56:06.440 --> 56:12.040]  foreign person. So for that tax return, I haven't filed in 31 years, right? But I would have to file
[56:12.040 --> 56:16.600]  if I wasn't engaged in that activity, but I wouldn't file for my income. I would file and pay over what
[56:16.600 --> 56:22.520]  I withheld of that guy's U.S. source income, okay? I could take that Social Security number and file
[56:22.520 --> 56:29.240]  that return that one time and never file again, because that was a one-time thing.
[56:29.240 --> 56:34.360]  So I say that to illustrate the point that the taxation is not predicated on the possession of
[56:34.360 --> 56:42.680]  a number. The taxation is predicated on falling into one of the three classes of persons that
[56:42.680 --> 56:49.480]  we've talked about repeatedly today. So let's specifically to the issue you raised of a common
[56:49.480 --> 56:54.040]  law trust. If the common law trust is not engaged in any of those activities,
[56:56.120 --> 57:00.600]  then the common law trust will never have any income tax obligations.
[57:01.480 --> 57:07.960]  Now, when we talk about opening in a bank account, that is, and I talked a little bit about how I did
[57:07.960 --> 57:12.280]  that, which is the correct way to do it, by the way, not because I did it, but because that's what
[57:12.280 --> 57:20.840]  the law requires. In the last show, I mentioned in brief that, I think I mentioned, that there's,
[57:22.440 --> 57:26.120]  and I'm not saying there aren't other people out there, but there's one person in the entire
[57:26.120 --> 57:31.880]  country I trust to set up credible trusts that have been court tested and verified and can stand
[57:31.880 --> 57:43.400]  up under scrutiny. And those trusts are oftentimes set up a bank account without any I.N. And if
[57:45.080 --> 57:47.640]  somebody wants to know how to reach that gentleman, they can always reach out to me.
[57:47.640 --> 57:51.400]  I guess we'll give my contact information at the end. I don't know if this is the correct
[57:51.400 --> 57:55.480]  forum to be handing out email addresses, but they can get ahold of me and I'll get them in
[57:55.480 --> 58:03.400]  touch with him. But if somebody wants to go on their own, they have a trust from somebody else
[58:03.400 --> 58:08.360]  and they want to get a bank account open, they can go down the same path that I went down,
[58:08.360 --> 58:12.840]  which is the bank says, sorry, we can't go past this moment on the computer unless we get that
[58:12.840 --> 58:18.120]  number. So they can furnish a number and then they can send a corrective notice to the bank.
[58:18.120 --> 58:20.600]  And again, people can contact me if they want to know more about that.
[58:21.320 --> 58:27.400]  Great. Thank you. Last question for you, Dave, for today, just for time posterity.
[58:28.600 --> 58:31.800]  So you have your book, which I know you're going to hold up the shiny book in a second
[58:31.800 --> 58:35.720]  so people can see it here over behind your left. I don't have one. They're going to have to
[58:37.960 --> 58:44.920]  look over here. Yeah. Okay. I will zoom in. But your book is pretty intensive and obviously
[58:45.000 --> 58:48.600]  well articulated and covers a lot of different things. Has there been a,
[58:50.040 --> 58:54.680]  on your website, or if there isn't, is there one in the works where you're going to do sort
[58:54.680 --> 59:01.240]  of a digital version of that that people can download? I would love to do that, but currently
[59:01.240 --> 59:09.080]  the answer is no. And let me explain why. Sure. Let's use, what's Amazon's digital book platform,
[59:09.080 --> 59:13.640]  what do they call it? Not Audible, but the one where you get the physical books. Well,
[59:13.640 --> 59:19.240]  not physical, but you get them on your device. I can't remember the name. Sure. So for instance,
[59:19.240 --> 59:24.440]  I'll just use the name Amazon since they own that platform. Okay. I did inquire years ago,
[59:24.440 --> 59:31.320]  and here's what Amazon told me. Based on the number of, I forget the exact dollar value,
[59:31.320 --> 59:38.760]  based on the number of pages, we say people will pay X. Okay. So I think back then it was like
[59:38.760 --> 59:45.080]  $9.99 for the book based on the number of pages. The content or the value is irrelevant to Amazon.
[59:45.080 --> 59:53.720]  Okay. And then they said, and we are going to graciously give you, again, this is many years
[59:53.720 --> 59:57.720]  ago, but I think they were going to give me like $1.79 a copy and they were going to keep all the
[59:57.720 --> 01:00:05.800]  rest. Okay. For the privilege of selling my product on the Amazon site. Now I understand
[01:00:05.800 --> 01:00:09.880]  the market has morphed a little bit and when I have some free time, whatever that may happen,
[01:00:10.520 --> 01:00:16.120]  I intend to do a little bit more investigation and see if I can't find a platform that would allow
[01:00:16.120 --> 01:00:21.640]  me to set the price of the book and that would provide, I don't want to say, and then me set
[01:00:21.640 --> 01:00:29.160]  the price that I get because that's not practical, but that platform would pay me something reasonable.
[01:00:29.160 --> 01:00:35.240]  Okay. And platforms like Amazon, there's nothing reasonable about it. And I've had the same
[01:00:35.240 --> 01:00:41.240]  experience when I considered doing an audio version. They sell it for X, which is trivial,
[01:00:41.240 --> 01:00:47.320]  and then they give me a tiny, tiny, tiny bit of that trivial amount. So no, not interested in that
[01:00:47.320 --> 01:00:52.360]  at this time. I'm hoping I can find some providers that do a better job and I can offer that. When
[01:00:52.360 --> 01:00:57.080]  the time comes, if it comes, I'll let you know. Sounds good. Yeah. Something that's more balanced
[01:00:57.080 --> 01:01:02.520]  and equitable that works out. Yes. And that's completely reasonable being in the music business,
[01:01:02.520 --> 01:01:06.600]  I can obviously understand and appreciate it that well. Don't get me started on Apple.
[01:01:07.240 --> 01:01:14.760]  So, Dave, as we end the podcast today, as enriching as it is and has been,
[01:01:15.960 --> 01:01:21.080]  where can people find your book, your work, and any last words you have for the audience today?
[01:01:21.640 --> 01:01:31.480]  Okay. They can find any of my works at drreality.news, that's drreality.news,
[01:01:31.480 --> 01:01:39.560]  not .com.news, drreality.news. They can email me if they have any questions at dave at drreality.news.
[01:01:40.600 --> 01:01:49.960]  Final message. When I first wrote Income Tax Shattering the Mess, I was under an illusion,
[01:01:49.960 --> 01:01:55.720]  maybe a delusion. And that was that because nobody had ever put together a comprehensive
[01:01:55.720 --> 01:02:00.440]  compendium like Income Tax Shattering the Mess. So I was under the delusion that my fellow citizens,
[01:02:01.320 --> 01:02:04.840]  all they needed to know was that they could get a hold of this type of compendium. It had never
[01:02:04.840 --> 01:02:09.960]  existed, but now it does. And everybody was, yeah, give me that. Let me learn the truth and walk away
[01:02:09.960 --> 01:02:19.320]  from this scam. I was an idiot. So I have found out, as we talked earlier, that most Americans,
[01:02:19.560 --> 01:02:25.160]  the government's disinformation campaign has been so successful, they believe that the truth is a
[01:02:25.160 --> 01:02:30.920]  lie. And that the lie is the truth. So I would simply encourage your audience.
[01:02:33.240 --> 01:02:36.120]  If you read through Income Tax Shattering the Mess and you choose to do nothing,
[01:02:36.120 --> 01:02:39.400]  okay, no harm, no foul. You should talk to other people about it once you know the truth.
[01:02:40.200 --> 01:02:46.680]  But don't just take the perspective that you shouldn't be informed. Get informed.
[01:02:47.320 --> 01:02:53.880]  Maybe when you realize that we're talking literally about, like, mountains of irrefutable
[01:02:53.880 --> 01:03:00.200]  evidence, maybe at that point, you'll say, oh, I am now, well, you will, anybody who's read it
[01:03:00.200 --> 01:03:06.920]  has had this experience. Now I am thoroughly convinced. I get it 100%. Okay, so at that point,
[01:03:06.920 --> 01:03:12.680]  you have a choice. You can do something, you can walk away safely, enjoy your life, never hear from
[01:03:12.680 --> 01:03:19.880]  them again. Or you can continue to be their little bitch, and that's up to you. But you can't even
[01:03:19.880 --> 01:03:28.760]  make that decision unless you know. So my final message is, please, get informed. If you want to
[01:03:28.760 --> 01:03:34.120]  do, you know, six, eight, 10, 20 years of research to find the answers for yourself, good, good on
[01:03:34.120 --> 01:03:37.560]  you. Or you can buy Income Tax Shattering the Mess and get it in the time that it takes you to
[01:03:37.560 --> 01:03:43.320]  read 408 pages. You know, whatever approach people want to take to that, I support wholeheartedly.
[01:03:44.440 --> 01:03:48.760]  Great. As always, Dave, a pleasure to have you, Dave Champion. Thank you for joining us on
[01:03:49.640 --> 01:03:55.800]  Income Tax Shattering the Mess and going through all the intricacies, say that fast three times,
[01:03:55.800 --> 01:04:01.560]  of how to deal with taxation and come out on top. We appreciate it. We look forward to having you
[01:04:01.560 --> 01:04:06.520]  again in the future, and thanks again for your time and expertise. Thanks, John. It's a pleasure
[01:04:06.520 --> 01:04:15.880]  being here. Take care.